A message from one of the Socrates team!

Scatterbrain · 12:25 AM

first of all here's the Socrates video for any newer members who haven't seen it

hi guys! since we were having the UK 3dmm meet this weekend, I thought it'd be worth trying to get in touch with some of the socrates team to see if they wanted to send a message to say hi/tell some stories etc about their time working on 3dmm.

two guys replied which is more than i expected haha - Guy Barker [5:18 in the video - still working at Microsoft on accessibility tools] was really friendly, said hey back etc but was a bit busy sadly so couldn't get round to writing a message. But Jamie Hall [5:40 - now a composer] wrote back with a ton of cool stuff I think everyone here will find really interesting! so yeah here it is

----

Patrick, thank you for writing me.

Yes, I did work on 3DMM back as my first project at Microsoft in 1995. It was one of the first programs developed within Microsoft that was exclusively a Windows 95 application. It was a really amazing project, and some of the people that were on that team are the best I've ever worked with. In fact, that project was pretty much the deciding factor in me going to work for Microsoft, as I was right out of college at the time.

I've stayed in contact with several of the team members off and on over the years and I can say that they are all pretty much thrilled with what the fan community has done with the program. Obviously at the time no one could have predicted the kinds of communities that the internet would spawn, but there were several people on the team who felt like the program had that kind of potential, the kind that would really facilitate people into being really creative and wanting to share their work.

Unfortunately, while the program was well reviewed and won some awards, the company viewed it as a failure, for it had been very expensive to make (for what was classified as a kid's "edutainment product") and sales were not that good. I don't think the company ever really figured out how to sell it properly. Most people who played with it loved it, but very few people seemed to find out about it. Parents balked at paying $40 for a product their kids hadn't really heard of. Microsoft decided to focus it's "kids" resources on known properties like The Magic Schoolbus and other stuff that would kind of sell itself. About 2 years after 3DMM shipped, the team was disbanded and scattered all over to different parts of MIcrosoft.

As for stories, well since I don't work at Microsoft any more, I think I can share these without getting into too much trouble. During our group testing, which often consisted of team members making movies for each other or movies that we would all take turns adding one scene to, one theme that arose was that people kept killing Bongo in their movies. I'm not sure how it all started, but it escalated until people were trying to outdo themselves by killing Bongo in the most grotesque way possible. Maybe that wasn't appropriate for a kids program, but we had fun with it.

Other stories--The day before the demo movies on the CD had to be finalized, a bug fix was made that caused my movie, Apollo 31, to be broken. I ended up pulling an all-nighter to recreate the movie from scratch so that it could go out with the program. Thankfully Microsoft provided unlimited Mountain Dew! It actually ended up being a better movie because I was more familiar with the program when I recreated it and was able to fix a lot of the stuff that I hadn't done very well the first time.

I think the first point that we realized what could really be done with the program was when Glen, one of the product managers on the project, figured out that you could take things like the 3D letters and shapes and really create almost anything with them. Up until that point, that was not really an intended thing. The main thrust of the program was to use the existing scenes and characters and actions to make movies. Once he kind of broke down that wall, it led to most of the techniques that went into my movie, and that the fan community picked up on and ran wild with. I don't think we set out to make it quite that extensible. I mean, 3D lettering was in there for LETTERING. It wasn't put in so that I could turn I's into laser bolts! At the time we shipped the product, we had barely begun to scratch the surface of what could be done with it, as can be seen by some of the amazing films have been made by fans over the years.

What else? Well this was kind of funny. Leading up to the launch, we kept getting grilled by our legal and marketing people that we couldn't have anyone die in any of our demo movies. In fact, my movie came very close to being pulled because I blow up that alien spaceship in it. In the end we argued that we didn't actually SHOW anyone dying, and whoever it was getting blasted wasn't human anyway! I guess they bought it as they changed their position and let my movie stay on the disc. Of course, we were all then horrified when the only major tv ad for the product (at least in the US) showed a little girl making a movie where she murders her brother by pushing him off a bridge! What a horrible idea--let's market a product showing parents how their kids can live out their fantasies of fratricide. I don't think any of us were too thrilled with the marketing team on that one.

Oh, here's one. One of my tasks on the project was creating the test automation that would essentially use the program all night while we were gone, logging what it was doing and trying to find bugs. While it did find a few really complex bugs, probably the most interesting thing it did was create a, well, sexually suggestive film. I actually got accused by at least one team member of being a pervert, but I swear to you that it was just a random thing the automation did! It would just randomly pick out scenes and actors and move them around. For whatever reason that one night it had a female character crawling in place and then had a male character standing behind her dancing in place. It didn't even always save the movies (that was a random action too), but it managed to save that one! I took some crap for that but I HAD to show people. It was just too funny.

Probably my biggest disappointment on the project was the E3 show. We demoed it there and had a lot of people amazed. I had a long talk with someone from DC comics who was super gung-ho about trying to figure out a way to make a DC branded version of the product. How amazing would it have been to had a 3DMM with Superman, Batman, etc.?? I walked out of the conference that day sure it was going to happen, but for whatever reasons it didn't and that makes me sad. I think a premier partnership like that could have given the program the exposure it needed.

I'm sure I have other stories buried in my head but it's been a long time. If there is anything in particular that you guys want to know I can probably tell you about it. The whole team lived and breathed that project for quite a while. At the end, we were working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for several months to finish it up in time for the holiday season. It was unbelievably stressful, but also probably the most fun I've ever had working on a project.

I'm personally very glad that all of our hard work is still being enjoyed nearly 15 years later. I don't think any of us dreamed in our wildest imagination thought that anyone would still be using the program in 2012!! Of course a lot of that is facilitated by the people who have created the add-ons and other amazing stuff that kept the program going all this time. In the end though, I'd like to think that all of you people still using the program is a testament to the vision of the project. We made the program because we knew that some people out there would love it, we just didn't figure out a way for it to make enough money for Microsoft to keep doing it. Maybe if we had done it later, when people had more powerful machines and internet connections it would have been a different story.

Have fun at your meeting, and if you have any other questions, send them along. And thanks for giving me a chance to reminisce about one of my favorite projects!

- Jamie

----

didn't expect anything like that reply to say the least! bizarre to think they actually know about us and have seen what's happened with the expansions etc. Since he offered to answer some other questions, Aaron and Breed suggested a handful [including one about the possibility of getting the source code, worth a shot] so watch this space!

Lord Blazer · 03-25-2012, 08:35 PM

Rabid Dinosaur · 03-25-2012, 08:37 PM

Awesome!

Slade · 03-25-2012, 08:52 PM

that is seriously god-damn heartwarming.

Evil Ash · 03-25-2012, 09:04 PM

Haha, that was great. I love that killing Bongo was a constant theme, haha.
And the automation story, that's awesome.

Don't think getting the source will happen since the project went under and they don't work for Microsoft anymore.

But one question you should really ask is WHY DID YOU GUYS MAKE TWO TOTEM POLES AND NO CHAIR?

Pizza The Hut · 03-25-2012, 09:27 PM

LOL it's MICROSOFT, good luck getting ANY source code!

anyway that's fucking incredible. hilarious to think that they were doing killing and a test automation suite did sex long before we ever did in the community!

Breed · 03-25-2012, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Ash

But one question you should really ask is WHY DID YOU GUYS MAKE TWO TOTEM POLES AND NO CHAIR?

We directly linked him to An Important Historical Film.

Bjorny · 03-25-2012, 11:55 PM

that's so nice!!

Eukos · 03-26-2012, 12:22 AM

Oh my

Samurai Clinton · 03-26-2012, 01:08 AM

Early movies from the cinema were just short subjects, likewise video clips from early multimedia PCs were just short subjects.

Dustin Guest · 03-26-2012, 01:27 AM

They sure were, Clinton. They sure were.

Lord Blazer · 03-26-2012, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai Clinton

Early movies from the cinema were just short subjects, likewise video clips from early multimedia PCs were just short subjects.

That is correct.

Old Rivers · 03-26-2012, 03:08 AM

This is great! I laughed at the Bongo Killing and Accidental Sex parts. Also, realizing that Apollo 31 was Venus 31. Really amazed by this! It actually felt kinda nostalgic for some reason.

Also good call, sending him An Important Historical Film!

Lord Blazer · 03-26-2012, 03:08 AM

What is An Important Historical Film?

Old Rivers · 03-26-2012, 03:10 AM

only the greatest thing ever made

Lord Blazer · 03-26-2012, 04:07 AM

Ah yes, that one.

Compcat · 03-26-2012, 04:35 AM

Woah, awesome.

Slime · 03-26-2012, 05:44 AM

That is great.

Is "An Important Historical Film" on Youtube?

Pizza The Hut · 03-26-2012, 05:49 AM

there's a google vid link in the thread...but I don't think it's on youtube.

Slime · 03-26-2012, 05:58 AM

didnt see that, thanks

Slade · 03-26-2012, 06:58 AM

To the timeline!

Phil Williamson · 03-26-2012, 08:50 AM

haha wow, this is definitely the best developer info we've ever gotten! I love that they started the same killing Bongo tradition that was big in the community for a while. I guess something about him just makes that irresistible!

I wonder if the TV ad he mentions still exists anywhere. I've never heard of it but it sounds interesting!

Tuna Hematoma · 03-26-2012, 10:52 AM

I am pretty sure I saw that ad. I think it was something like a baby crawling up high somewhere, the baby would have fallen and landed on the ground, but they back up, added a character to the screen and made the character catch the baby? Something like that.

I just remember seeing an ad for 3dmm and being all hyper about it. My brother got me 3dmm for Christmas.

Bjorny · 03-26-2012, 01:45 PM

ask him if he knows where to find this tv commercial!

Pirate Balloon · 03-26-2012, 05:56 PM

Ask him about why texture colour shading was never used, even though as we found it's supported in the 3dmm files by modifying the pallet?

Or was that already answered?

03-25-2012, 08:13 PM	#1
Scatterbrain Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 8,576	A message from one of the Socrates team! first of all here's the Socrates video for any newer members who haven't seen it hi guys! since we were having the UK 3dmm meet this weekend, I thought it'd be worth trying to get in touch with some of the socrates team to see if they wanted to send a message to say hi/tell some stories etc about their time working on 3dmm. two guys replied which is more than i expected haha - Guy Barker [5:18 in the video - still working at Microsoft on accessibility tools] was really friendly, said hey back etc but was a bit busy sadly so couldn't get round to writing a message. But Jamie Hall [5:40 - now a composer] wrote back with a ton of cool stuff I think everyone here will find really interesting! so yeah here it is ---- Patrick, thank you for writing me. Yes, I did work on 3DMM back as my first project at Microsoft in 1995. It was one of the first programs developed within Microsoft that was exclusively a Windows 95 application. It was a really amazing project, and some of the people that were on that team are the best I've ever worked with. In fact, that project was pretty much the deciding factor in me going to work for Microsoft, as I was right out of college at the time. I've stayed in contact with several of the team members off and on over the years and I can say that they are all pretty much thrilled with what the fan community has done with the program. Obviously at the time no one could have predicted the kinds of communities that the internet would spawn, but there were several people on the team who felt like the program had that kind of potential, the kind that would really facilitate people into being really creative and wanting to share their work. Unfortunately, while the program was well reviewed and won some awards, the company viewed it as a failure, for it had been very expensive to make (for what was classified as a kid's "edutainment product") and sales were not that good. I don't think the company ever really figured out how to sell it properly. Most people who played with it loved it, but very few people seemed to find out about it. Parents balked at paying $40 for a product their kids hadn't really heard of. Microsoft decided to focus it's "kids" resources on known properties like The Magic Schoolbus and other stuff that would kind of sell itself. About 2 years after 3DMM shipped, the team was disbanded and scattered all over to different parts of MIcrosoft. As for stories, well since I don't work at Microsoft any more, I think I can share these without getting into too much trouble. During our group testing, which often consisted of team members making movies for each other or movies that we would all take turns adding one scene to, one theme that arose was that people kept killing Bongo in their movies. I'm not sure how it all started, but it escalated until people were trying to outdo themselves by killing Bongo in the most grotesque way possible. Maybe that wasn't appropriate for a kids program, but we had fun with it. Other stories--The day before the demo movies on the CD had to be finalized, a bug fix was made that caused my movie, Apollo 31, to be broken. I ended up pulling an all-nighter to recreate the movie from scratch so that it could go out with the program. Thankfully Microsoft provided unlimited Mountain Dew! It actually ended up being a better movie because I was more familiar with the program when I recreated it and was able to fix a lot of the stuff that I hadn't done very well the first time. I think the first point that we realized what could really be done with the program was when Glen, one of the product managers on the project, figured out that you could take things like the 3D letters and shapes and really create almost anything with them. Up until that point, that was not really an intended thing. The main thrust of the program was to use the existing scenes and characters and actions to make movies. Once he kind of broke down that wall, it led to most of the techniques that went into my movie, and that the fan community picked up on and ran wild with. I don't think we set out to make it quite that extensible. I mean, 3D lettering was in there for LETTERING. It wasn't put in so that I could turn I's into laser bolts! At the time we shipped the product, we had barely begun to scratch the surface of what could be done with it, as can be seen by some of the amazing films have been made by fans over the years. What else? Well this was kind of funny. Leading up to the launch, we kept getting grilled by our legal and marketing people that we couldn't have anyone die in any of our demo movies. In fact, my movie came very close to being pulled because I blow up that alien spaceship in it. In the end we argued that we didn't actually SHOW anyone dying, and whoever it was getting blasted wasn't human anyway! I guess they bought it as they changed their position and let my movie stay on the disc. Of course, we were all then horrified when the only major tv ad for the product (at least in the US) showed a little girl making a movie where she murders her brother by pushing him off a bridge! What a horrible idea--let's market a product showing parents how their kids can live out their fantasies of fratricide. I don't think any of us were too thrilled with the marketing team on that one. Oh, here's one. One of my tasks on the project was creating the test automation that would essentially use the program all night while we were gone, logging what it was doing and trying to find bugs. While it did find a few really complex bugs, probably the most interesting thing it did was create a, well, sexually suggestive film. I actually got accused by at least one team member of being a pervert, but I swear to you that it was just a random thing the automation did! It would just randomly pick out scenes and actors and move them around. For whatever reason that one night it had a female character crawling in place and then had a male character standing behind her dancing in place. It didn't even always save the movies (that was a random action too), but it managed to save that one! I took some crap for that but I HAD to show people. It was just too funny. Probably my biggest disappointment on the project was the E3 show. We demoed it there and had a lot of people amazed. I had a long talk with someone from DC comics who was super gung-ho about trying to figure out a way to make a DC branded version of the product. How amazing would it have been to had a 3DMM with Superman, Batman, etc.?? I walked out of the conference that day sure it was going to happen, but for whatever reasons it didn't and that makes me sad. I think a premier partnership like that could have given the program the exposure it needed. I'm sure I have other stories buried in my head but it's been a long time. If there is anything in particular that you guys want to know I can probably tell you about it. The whole team lived and breathed that project for quite a while. At the end, we were working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for several months to finish it up in time for the holiday season. It was unbelievably stressful, but also probably the most fun I've ever had working on a project. I'm personally very glad that all of our hard work is still being enjoyed nearly 15 years later. I don't think any of us dreamed in our wildest imagination thought that anyone would still be using the program in 2012!! Of course a lot of that is facilitated by the people who have created the add-ons and other amazing stuff that kept the program going all this time. In the end though, I'd like to think that all of you people still using the program is a testament to the vision of the project. We made the program because we knew that some people out there would love it, we just didn't figure out a way for it to make enough money for Microsoft to keep doing it. Maybe if we had done it later, when people had more powerful machines and internet connections it would have been a different story. Have fun at your meeting, and if you have any other questions, send them along. And thanks for giving me a chance to reminisce about one of my favorite projects! - Jamie ---- didn't expect anything like that reply to say the least! bizarre to think they actually know about us and have seen what's happened with the expansions etc. Since he offered to answer some other questions, Aaron and Breed suggested a handful [including one about the possibility of getting the source code, worth a shot] so watch this space!
	Last edited by Scatterbrain : 03-26-2012 at 12:25 AM.

03-25-2012, 08:52 PM	#4
Slade Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 9,404	that is seriously god-damn heartwarming.
Slade Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 9,404

03-25-2012, 09:04 PM	#5
Evil Ash Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 15,646	Haha, that was great. I love that killing Bongo was a constant theme, haha. And the automation story, that's awesome. Don't think getting the source will happen since the project went under and they don't work for Microsoft anymore. But one question you should really ask is WHY DID YOU GUYS MAKE TWO TOTEM POLES AND NO CHAIR?
Evil Ash Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 15,646

03-25-2012, 11:55 PM	#8
Bjorny Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 7,235	that's so nice!!
Bjorny Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 7,235

03-26-2012, 12:22 AM	#9
Eukos Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 3,153	Oh my
Eukos Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 3,153

03-25-2012, 08:35 PM	#2
Lord Blazer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 17,535

03-25-2012, 08:37 PM	#3
Rabid Dinosaur Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 14,928	Awesome!

03-25-2012, 09:27 PM	#6
Pizza The Hut Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 10,671	LOL it's MICROSOFT, good luck getting ANY source code! anyway that's fucking incredible. hilarious to think that they were doing killing and a test automation suite did sex long before we ever did in the community!

03-26-2012, 01:08 AM	#10
Samurai Clinton Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,124	Early movies from the cinema were just short subjects, likewise video clips from early multimedia PCs were just short subjects.

03-26-2012, 01:27 AM	#11
Dustin Guest Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 4,432	They sure were, Clinton. They sure were.

03-26-2012, 03:08 AM	#13
Old Rivers Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 8,824	This is great! I laughed at the Bongo Killing and Accidental Sex parts. Also, realizing that Apollo 31 was Venus 31. Really amazed by this! It actually felt kinda nostalgic for some reason. Also good call, sending him An Important Historical Film!

03-26-2012, 03:10 AM	#15
Old Rivers Super Moderator Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 8,824	only the greatest thing ever made

03-26-2012, 04:07 AM	#16
Lord Blazer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 17,535	Ah yes, that one.

03-26-2012, 04:35 AM	#17
Compcat Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 9,189	Woah, awesome.
Compcat Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 9,189

03-26-2012, 05:44 AM	#18
Slime Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 24,977	That is great. Is "An Important Historical Film" on Youtube?
Slime Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 24,977

03-26-2012, 05:49 AM	#19
Pizza The Hut Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 10,671	there's a google vid link in the thread...but I don't think it's on youtube.

03-26-2012, 05:58 AM	#20
Slime Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 24,977	didnt see that, thanks
Slime Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 24,977

03-26-2012, 06:58 AM	#21
Slade Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 9,404	To the timeline!
Slade Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 9,404

03-26-2012, 08:50 AM	#22
Phil Williamson Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 16,986	haha wow, this is definitely the best developer info we've ever gotten! I love that they started the same killing Bongo tradition that was big in the community for a while. I guess something about him just makes that irresistible! I wonder if the TV ad he mentions still exists anywhere. I've never heard of it but it sounds interesting!

03-26-2012, 10:52 AM	#23
Tuna Hematoma Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 10,062	I am pretty sure I saw that ad. I think it was something like a baby crawling up high somewhere, the baby would have fallen and landed on the ground, but they back up, added a character to the screen and made the character catch the baby? Something like that. I just remember seeing an ad for 3dmm and being all hyper about it. My brother got me 3dmm for Christmas.

03-26-2012, 01:45 PM	#24
Bjorny Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 7,235	ask him if he knows where to find this tv commercial!
Bjorny Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 7,235

03-26-2012, 05:56 PM	#25
Pirate Balloon Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,907	Ask him about why texture colour shading was never used, even though as we found it's supported in the 3dmm files by modifying the pallet? Or was that already answered?