Proposition 8 supposedly passed

[Apfigur]

ofcourse

[Jesterfoot]

Originally Posted by Apfigur

What am I supposed to get from this? What could happen with a kid with two moms?

I think it's very likely that it could contribute to sexual confusion in a child, I know that if I grew up with two gay fathers I'd be alot gayer than I am now.

[Deano]

Originally Posted by Don Tickner

I don't go around saying "Ban Homosexuality" even though it's against my religeon, I'm happy for them to enjoy their life style choice as long as they don't start messing with my life style choice. In a word; Tolerance.

I don't want them coming to a place of holy worship. It's what we in the biz call an "abomonation". Not a good thing.

Spell Check

[Apfigur]

Originally Posted by Jesterfoot

I think it's very likely that it could contribute to sexual confusion in a child, I know that if I grew up with two gay fathers I'd be alot gayer than I am now.

I think that'd be OK.

[Aaron Haynes]

Originally Posted by Jesterfoot

I think it's very likely that it could contribute to sexual confusion in a child, I know that if I grew up with two gay fathers I'd be alot gayer than I am now.

Your perspective wouldn't have been formed the same way it is now. I don't think kids with gay parents have to recalibrate to figure out how it fits into an already-present worldview.

They'd eventually learn more about how it's perceived in the world as they got older. But I doubt that, as a rule, there's any significant effect on their sexual orientation.

[McJuicy]

I am what the gays call a power top

[Kale Monster]

Originally Posted by Don Tickner

Honestly, yes.
I find it rather insulting to be frank.

I don't go around saying "Ban Homosexuality" even though it's against my religeon, I'm happy for them to enjoy their life style choice as long as they don't start messing with my life style choice. In a word; Tolerance.

I don't want them coming to a place of holy worship. It's what we in the biz call an "abomonation". Not a good thing.

I'm happy to tolerate their choice and respect them as human beings as long as they are prepared to do the same. Two way streets, my friend.

Okay I'm gonna post more seriously now because this is upsetting me here a bit in light of prop 8.

Don, you have to understand that this is not a choice. You have to understand the gravity of what you're saying here. So in order to illustrate this a little, I'm going to sort of let my privacy guard down and post a bit about my private life on the internet.

I didn't get up one morning when I was 13 years old and go, "you know what? From now on, I'm just going to be attracted to guys." I didn't choose to develop feelings for my classmates in highschool, fearing for my life because of these feelings and what was happening to me. I didn't choose isolation and the anxiety that goes along with keeping a massive part of my identity a secret. One of the most sickening feelings in the world is to be so attracted to someone that you want to sing it to the world, and wanting to puke out of fear of those feelings, simultaneously. It's not something that I chose and it's not something I would want to wish on anyone.

You also have to understand the extent of what I'm talking about here and how far reaching this fear has impacted on my life.

Some examples:
I had a girlfriend when I was thirteen, a girl who was is a fairly good friend of mine still. And messing about with her only led to angst and confusion, because I couldn't really get it up. So I dumped her. We were thirteen at the time, yes, but I hurt her and I still haven't been able to tell her why I did it, even though she's a friend of mine still, because of the fear. I remember the evening I dumped her with immense clarity. I went home and looked up some straight pornography and just didn't feel anything. (I still essentially indifferent the female body, sexually.) If you think that homosexuality is a choice, I invite you to try getting aroused over a guy or some porn or something. You probably won't be able to; At the very least, you'll be indifferent and at worst you'll be repulsed. That's okay! That's kind of your biology kicking in. But it's exactly the same for me, and I first realised this when I hurt this girl (the first of a few girls, to be honest.)

When I first came out to my mother at sixteen, the shock of it put a strain on my family and it was something I had never anticipated. I felt as though I had caused my parents to be miserable and was putting all of this misery on my family. I blamed myself. We didn't talk about it for another four years seriously. But even though they are okay with it, they're worried now about how it will affect the rest of my family as they find out. So the stress is still there. My best friend from highschool probably knows about my sexuality, seeing as though he's hung out with me now that I've moved from my small town and has stayed at my apartment in Melbourne and met my boyfriend. And yet, I still can't bring myself to tell him. It's just this irrational small-town block.

I've had police officers try to intimidate me based on my sexuality. I've watched Australia vote against not only gay marriage, but civil unions.

As someone who went through his teenage years as a gay guy, it was fucking hell. In small town Australia, it was pretty frigging frightening because of gay slurs, violence (not towards me, but others) and homophobia. I felt as though I had to leave the city I grew up in just to be able to stop the fear and the anxiety.

Calling me an abomination because my brain is wired differently to yours is not tolerance. Calling me an abomination and reducing mine and others' struggles to a 'choice' is not tolerance. Hiding behind a religion is not tolerance. Trying to exclude me or others from celebrating your religion and a God is not tolerance and goes directly against the philosophies of Christianity.

Please understand that what you are saying and what you believe is not tolerance. Also, please understand that I'm not calling you a bad person here. I understand that as a member of the majority (white, middle class, Christian, etc) it can be hard to emphasize with people who you feel are an entire world away from your experiences. I didn't type this all out to gain sympathy from you, because I've turned out confident, healthy, and grounded. I don't need sympathy because despite everything, I dodged a LOT of bullets. I'm getting into activism, buying a house and freelancing. I live in a beautiful city and have a pretty incredible boyfriend. The reason I typed all this out because your words, proposition eight, right wing and this hardcore judgement of minorities are the reasons why gay teenage boys and girls are significantly more likely to kill themselves. It's the reason why my childhood – while fairly remarkable in some ways – was filled with sickening fear, anxiety and a severe identity crisis. My experiences have been so profound that since graduating Uni, I've spent a lot of time working in radio and community services to try and reach out to gay youth and to let them know that it's okay! I feel as though I need to reach as many kids as I can because I fucking don't want anyone to be as afraid as I was growing up. And I want these kids to know that the people who believe what you believe, and who vote against gay marriage, and call us abominations do so because they don't emphasize with this at all. At least, I hope this is true.

I know that these paragraphs might fail to have any impact on you, but I want to know that I'm not angry or judgmental of you or anyone who harbours these sorts of beliefs because I sincerely believe that you don't really have any perspective on this or any empathy whatseover. I believe that these sort of beliefs are borne from fairly identifiable social and religious backgrounds and am optimistic that, although you may utter these sorts of words right now, around the world, churches and families from all creeds are opening their minds and their support to minorities – not just gays, but the disabled, the marginalised, transgendered, all sorts of minorities. I can see the progression that's really what has inspired me to type all of this out. It inspires my voluntary work and it's one of the reasons why I don't think ill of you at all, despite the insults.

[Kale Monster]

Afterthought:
If you look at my interactions with 3dmm.com you can pretty much accurately line up the bad periods in my life up with my mood on the board. It's pretty accurate to say that I was a grumpy asshole, but I'm trying to change that now. It's one of the reasons why I cut down a lot on my posting, because I'm trying not to fall into the old retarded habits. The reasons are gone, but the cynical/sarcastic posting still comes out sometimes. It's a bit hit and miss.

[Phil Williamson]

Originally Posted by Jesterfoot

I think it's very likely that it could contribute to sexual confusion in a child, I know that if I grew up with two gay fathers I'd be alot gayer than I am now.

I hope you don't find this inappropriately personal, but as a biracial person I'm very surprised to hear you using essentially the same argument that was used against mixed-race marriages a few decades ago (that growing up with mixed-race parents would cause a child to be ostracized and have trouble developing a social identity).

Cade - that was really well put. I think if more people had the opportunity to have frank discourse with gays about their perspective on the matter it would change a lot of minds. That being said, I can't really criticize Tickner for his way of looking at things. Given that he has deep-seated religious convictions against homosexuality, I think the best you can really hope for is for him and people like him to recognize that their personal beliefs shouldn't dictate public policy. If the struggles of just about every other minority group in recent history are any indications, it's going to be a very slow and gradual - but given enough time, inevitable - process for social conservatives to come around to accepting homosexuality. For the time being, simply tolerating it, as Tickner does, is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

[Adam Clough]

Originally Posted by Cade

-everything Cade said-

Well, everyone is different, it might not have been a choice for you, but the only gay dudes I know have been attracted to women aswell.
Even my gay cousin is now straight and has been married to a girl for 2 years, they've just had a kid. His best man at the wedding was his ex boyfriend.
But yeah, to condense that, I think what you're saying is that the things that are the same are the things that are important and not the things that are different.

[Adam Clough]

Originally Posted by Warren Wagner

-everything Warren said-

Not fully, I get the discrimination, though I don't get why you'd still put up with it.
Like, for example, I'd tell the real esate agent straight away that "I'm gay, this is my gay husband, and yes we will most likely pound butt and watch gay porn in this appartment, if you've got an issue with that I could always take my money to -insert competitor-".
So yeah while discretion's good, don't hide that you're gay. If you're honest you'll find out whose worth your time and who isn't.
Not much point in worrying about random people who don't want to have anything to do with you, you don't have to have anything to do with them.

And as far as the marriage goes, if you were anulled would you miss/get cut of out on benefits of some kind? or is it just a title?
Cause really, if it's just a title, then it wouldn't stop you from representing yourself as a husband, you don't need anyone else to do that for you.

[Kale Monster]

...That's still not indicative of choice. You're missing my point: You do not choose who you are attracted to. Even though your cousin was in a same-sex relationship, that alone doesn't mean he is gay. It just so happens that I have never run into a girl who I would actually pursue, because I have absolutely no desire to. That is not a choice.

As for "I think what you're saying is that the things that are the same are the things that are important and not the things that are different." I have no idea what you're saying here.

[Aaron Haynes]

Cade: That took balls. Well said, and sincerely thanks for sharing it.

[Adam Clough]

Well you were saying how being gay doesn't mean that you don't believe in god or can't follow a religion. That would say you'd have the same beliefs as straight Don Tickner-esqe people have and that's what's important. And in general, that's important in everything.

Originally Posted by Cade

It just so happens that I have never run into a girl who I would actually pursue, because I have absolutely no desire to. That is not a choice.

Well, avoiding's a choice :P. But yeah I do agree attraction isn't a choice.
It can just look that way when a guy flips flops from straight to gay and back to straight again.

[Phil Williamson]

Originally Posted by Adam Clough

Well, everyone is different, it might not have been a choice for you, but the only gay dudes I know have been attracted to women aswell.
Even my gay cousin is now straight and has been married to a girl for 2 years, they've just had a kid. His best man at the wedding was his ex boyfriend.
But yeah, to condense that, I think what you're saying is that the things that are the same are the things that are important and not the things that are different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality

Originally Posted by Adam Clough

And as far as the marriage goes, if you were anulled would you miss/get cut of out on benefits of some kind? or is it just a title?
Cause really, if it's just a title, then it wouldn't stop you from representing yourself as a husband, you don't need anyone else to do that for you.

It's a slap in the face. It's being told by the government that your relationship isn't legitimate enough to be on the same level as a straight married couple's, that the use of the word "marriage" to describe your relationship degrades the term. I'm sure some gay people aren't bothered by this and just look at it in entirely practical terms, but I'll bet you that the vast majority are - and reasonably so.

[Kale Monster]

Originally Posted by Adam Clough

Well you were saying how being gay doesn't mean that you don't believe in god or can't follow a religion. That would say you'd have the same beliefs as straight Don Tickner-esqe people have and that's what's important. And in general, that's important in everything.

Well, avoiding's a choice :P. But yeah I do agree attraction isn't a choice.
It can just look that way when a guy flips flops from straight to gay and back to straight again.

1) I never said that I didn't believe in a god because I was gay. What I said is that I find it astonishing that Don Tickner said this:

"I don't want them coming to a place of holy worship. It's what we in the biz call an "abomonation". Not a good thing."

It's alarming and that anyone would want to prevent a GBLTI individual from joining them in religious celebration/worship/whatever. I find that tragic.

2) People don't flipflop. It means he is attracted to both men and women and if he were to label himself it would probably be either bisexual or pansexual.

[Kale Monster]

Originally Posted by Phil Williamson

I hope you don't find this inappropriately personal, but as a biracial person I'm very surprised to hear you using essentially the same argument that was used against mixed-race marriages a few decades ago (that growing up with mixed-race parents would cause a child to be ostracized and have trouble developing a social identity).

I think he was joking dude.

[Aaron Haynes]

In that case it flew over my head, too. Hi 5, Phil.

[Kale Monster]

Originally Posted by Phil Williamson

Cade - that was really well put. I think if more people had the opportunity to have frank discourse with gays about their perspective on the matter it would change a lot of minds. That being said, I can't really criticize Tickner for his way of looking at things. Given that he has deep-seated religious convictions against homosexuality, I think the best you can really hope for is for him and people like him to recognize that their personal beliefs shouldn't dictate public policy. If the struggles of just about every other minority group in recent history are any indications, it's going to be a very slow and gradual - but given enough time, inevitable - process for social conservatives to come around to accepting homosexuality. For the time being, simply tolerating it, as Tickner does, is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

Don Tickner does not have a position of tolerance. The main problem I have with religious discrimination of GBLTI individuals is that it's hand picked from a literally two passages from Old Testament. Two passages. That's such a tiny portion of the Bible that it seems to me to be more like a way to use religion to justify a preconceived intolerance than actually sticking faithfully to religious scripture.

The main issue however is that in western nations, the middle class does not suffer from the sort of social injustices that minorities suffer from. The funny thing is, though, that this on occasion extends to the minorities themselves – mainstream gay culture can suffer greatly from racism for example, and I have a few stories about being on swimming teams where I have witnessed homophobia from the disabled before. But overall, there is more acceptance and advocacy from minorities. Even though I don't really identify as disabled, some of my activism efforts cross between disability activism and GBLTI activism, and I know that the organisations I work for sort of liaise and work together a lot more than when I was growing up.

Conservative views tend to be held by white, middle class society I could write entire essays on why, but really it's because it's simply easier when one is a part of the majority, or seen to be a part of the majority.

[Adam Clough]

Originally Posted by Cade

1) I never said that I didn't believe in a god because I was gay. What I said is that I find it astonishing that Don Tickner said this:

"I don't want them coming to a place of holy worship. It's what we in the biz call an "abomonation". Not a good thing."

It's alarming and that anyone would want to prevent a GBLTI individual from joining them in religious celebration/worship/whatever. I find that tragic.

2) People don't flipflop. It means he is attracted to both men and women and if he were to label himself it would probably be either bisexual or pansexual.

Well, the people that I know who switch always title themselves by their current situation.
Even Warren said earlier that he's still attracted to women, but is married to a dude so he goes with gay.
Honestly, I don't think any of it's really that clear cut.

And yeah if someone wants to join a religion it's presumably for like minded reasons. [Though I'd say the world could do without that too.]

[Kale Monster]

It really isn't that clear cut. Sexuality is fairly blurred that way. Kinsey and all that.

[Zaquis]

i thought i was straight but halfway into cade's post i realized i was touching myself

fuck

[Kale Monster]

I still have those nudes you sent me a while ago Zachie boyyyyyy

:I

[Zaquis]

i don't remember ever taking nude photos of myself but i would not be surprised to find some floating around the internet

[Kale Monster]

You once sent me a photo of you in a dress hohoho

EDIT: remember thailand? that shit was phat, mannnnnn