I want to understand why 3dmm is dying.

[Ben Rice]

I know that now, since you just sent it to me over msn, thanks alot dude.

[Cheezemaster]

I miss my 3dmoviemaking days, it was fun playing with red cubes, bongo and stretched out tents...

do people still use 3dmm for fun anymore?

[Pirate Balloon]

no it is purely for corporate profit now £$£

[Aaron Haynes]

Originally Posted by Cheezemaster

I miss my 3dmoviemaking days, it was fun playing with red cubes, bongo and stretched out tents...

do people still use 3dmm for fun anymore?

The only movies that have come out for the past year+ have been quick little "for fun" shorts.

[Bjorny]

really? when was the last time I released a movie? 2003? or was that when we expected to release digouts 3?

[Tuna Hematoma]

I believe cheeze is one of them "OLD 3DMMERS" who wish movies were just bongo's and squished tents.... I think... he's french, they're shady people.

[Cheezemaster]

I just like Bongo.

and you.

[Breed]

awww.

[Anthropophagus]

If you want to understand why 3dmm is dying, take a look in the mirror. It's been bleeding ever since you released that stupid-ass Manifesto to incite people into making their 3dmm work more parallel with that of major Hollywood productions. Seriously... fucking legitimate cinematography in 3dmm? What a retard. Probably the defining moment in 3dmm's evolution (or devolution), followed closely by the expansions.

[Andres]

hahaha what the fuck. you haven't seen a 3dmm movie in years, you have no idea how 3dmm movies currently look like or why 3dmm movie production has decreased, and you're going to blame ME for destroying the community based on ideas that most people didn't really follow? go take off your shirt somewhere else you faggot. considering i wrote the manifesto in like 2001 and the community peaked like 3-4 years later i think you need to shut the fuck up and accept that just because your idea of what a good 3dmm movie is consists of retarded, devoid-of-merit shorts of you killing children, the rest of the community doesn't agree that it is the be-all, end-all. get the fuck out of this community already. no one likes you anymore, you've spent the past 3 years talking about your completely barren future, uploading moronic videos of you breaking shit, and then bitching about 3dmm this and 3dmm that as if we're supposed to take the opinions of some dude whose 3dmm output was the same movie made 50 times seriously.

[Anthropophagus]

Originally Posted by Andres

hahaha what the fuck. you haven't seen a 3dmm movie in years, you have no idea how 3dmm movies currently look like or why 3dmm movie production has decreased, and you're going to blame ME for destroying the community based on ideas that most people didn't really follow? go take off your shirt somewhere else you faggot. considering i wrote the manifesto in like 2001 and the community peaked like 3-4 years later i think you need to shut the fuck up and accept that just because your idea of what a good 3dmm movie is consists of retarded, devoid-of-merit shorts of you killing children, the rest of the community doesn't agree that it is the be-all, end-all. get the fuck out of this community already. no one likes you anymore, you've spent the past 3 years talking about your completely barren future, uploading moronic videos of you breaking shit, and then bitching about 3dmm this and 3dmm that as if we're supposed to take the opinions of some dude whose 3dmm output was the same movie made 50 times seriously.

Still a spastic douchebag, I see. Are you proud for having established your image on the internet? Someone needs to bitchslap that fiery attitude out of your greasy spic head. God knows you wouldn't cop such an aggressive tone in real life.

Anyway - you're inventing facts. I know what a competent 3dmm movie is, and it doesn't include stupid shorts (although they're nothing to discredit, either). In my own mind, I would consider Jordi Visser's work to be a talented, entertaining use of the program. Please don't attempt to reproduce my thoughts, when you don't know shit, and never will.

The community may have peaked 3-4 years later, but you unwittingly helped plant the seeds of self-destruction. It wasn't you, and solely you. I'm sure there are other many factors to examine, but your attitude - creating movies to be polished, SERIOUS endeavors, following the paradigm that live-action, big budget flicks adhere to - ultimately contributed to this program's destruction. You pretentious fucking loser.

No one likes me anymore? What the hell? I never realized everyone suddenly hated me and was conspiring behind my back. I was pretty sure everyone reacted in a positive way whenever I posted, but I guess I'm wrong. "Get out of the community"? Uh, I post once or twice every few months. I couldn't be much more "out".

Trying to flex your e-muscles is a lot worse than me taking my shirt off and flexing my real muscles, bitch.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by Sapone

Still a spastic douchebag, I see. Are you proud for having established your image on the internet? Someone needs to bitchslap that fiery attitude out of your greasy spic head. God knows you wouldn't cop such an aggressive tone in real life.

Anyway - you're inventing facts.

haha jesus christ.

[Anthropophagus]

Originally Posted by Jay Gilsenan

haha jesus christ.

What's so off about that bolded portion? He creates information, and perceives it to be fact - and nothing but - simply because it was uttered from his slimy fingers.

[Andres]

Originally Posted by Sapone

your attitude - creating movies to be polished, SERIOUS endeavors, following the paradigm that live-action, big budget flicks adhere to - ultimately contributed to this program's destruction.

That's the attitude that every major movie released since 2000 has had. You bold the word 'serious' like I ever said that movies should mimic european dramas. My own 'big movie' wasn't a 'serious' movie by any stretch of the imagination. Every major movie released this decade has been a polished, serious endeavor, you moron. Even terrible movies like DD are serious, polished endeavours that clearly had a lot of thought put into their (*GASP*) real-life-imitating cinematography. What you're trying to say is the community would have more life now if it had never gotten much of a life in the first place. You're dead wrong. And quite frankly, if you want to blame me because according to you, my crazy ideas led to people trying more ambitious films, then I'm proud of that. I would be proud if people made awesome movies because I said 'stop making crap'.

[Raz]

Originally Posted by Sapone

What's so off about that bolded portion? He creates information, and perceives it to be fact - and nothing but - simply because it was uttered from his slimy fingers.

It's hilarious because your inventing facts about him! "Oh I bet you wouldn't say that in real life waffel;waf;fgk" HOW DO YOU KNOW? OH WAIT YOU DON'T? Inventing facts Sapone?

Originally Posted by Sapone

The community may have peaked 3-4 years later, but you unwittingly helped plant the seeds of self-destruction. It wasn't you, and solely you. I'm sure there are other many factors to examine, but your attitude - creating movies to be polished, SERIOUS endeavors, following the paradigm that live-action, big budget flicks adhere to - ultimately contributed to this program's destruction. You pretentious fucking loser.

Hey, maybe the fact that you were constantly trying to argue with people was one of these factors. I mean you really did think you were hot shit didn't you? Desperate to Sapwn people Jon? Posting topics like "Post a topic where you are proud of your arguing"? Jesus fucking christ, get over yourself you goddamn fucking nobody.

At least the manifesto was meant to be something that was positive towards 3dmming. A guide or whatever. You were more interested in arguing to make YOURSELF look like you have some huge fucking hard e-image so don't give anyone that "pretencious" bullshit because you wrote the fucking book.

It's literally unbelievable that you're making an accusation like this. You are much more aggresive and threatening over the internet than ANYONE here. If you're accusing people's bad attitudes to be responsible, well I'd say you're just as to blame.

People can ignore a manifesto. It's hard to ignore when you're trying to post and some guy is trying to make himself look hard over the internet by being a bitch and picking stupid fights. I mean, I know stupid fights happen all the time here but god Sapone. Stop pointing the finger, you weren't exactly holding the door open for new directors.

[Anthropophagus]

Originally Posted by Andres

That's the attitude that every major movie released since 2000 has had. You bold the word 'serious' like I ever said that movies should mimic european dramas. My own 'big movie' wasn't a 'serious' movie by any stretch of the imagination. Every major movie released this decade has been a polished, serious endeavor, you moron. Even terrible movies like DD are serious, polished endeavours that clearly had a lot of thought put into their (*GASP*) real-life-imitating cinematography. What you're trying to say is the community would have more life now if it had never gotten much of a life in the first place. You're dead wrong. And quite frankly, if you want to blame me because according to you, my crazy ideas led to people trying more ambitious films, then I'm proud of that. I would be proud if people made awesome movies because I said 'stop making crap'.

It's really a double-edged sword - its growth, that is. The program and its community started out very humble, very simple. It evolved and took on a totally different character, and the mounting complexity is ultimately what is causing its death. I mentioned it in my other topic - it's like any band which gains fame and begins to experience growth. It will eventually lose its momentum and become a miserable shell of its former self.

You can be proud, but I gave you an answer to your question. You are the cause for its death. Not JUST you, but you are a contributing factor. My point is kind of lost amidst the blatant animosity and personal attacks, but it's simple. It's really just the product of the passage of time, the urge for people to live up to some paradigm, the shift of members...

[Aaron Haynes]

The most damning evidence against the idea that major productions killed the community is that it apparently took four years before the damage of that shift took effect. 2003 and 2004 were probably the most productive years in the community's history; movie threads, even for big movies, never reached the sheer levels they did in those years. The average size for a notable release in 2004 was like 160 replies. Movies were starting to get reviews more than page long from upwards of like ten people. I've never seen the community as active and involved as they were in 2004.

Besides that, most people who disappeared before 2001 or 2002 who wander back to 3DMM Chat are surprised by the fact that the community is even still here. That's the comment you hear the most often from old-school directors who wander back to 3dmm.com on a whim: "Wow, I can't believe how big this place has gotten, I didn't think this program would still have a following."

You know why 3dmm is dying? It's because apathy begets apathy. New releases are getting eight replies and then slowly dying off the first page. There are 20 HUGE movies sitting on a shelf collecting dust, with no updates from the director in months or even years. Nobody wants to get inspired to hammer out their movie because no one else seems to be moving either. There's no inertia for the sheer amount of experimentation and production that was being done in late 2004 through 2005. I could make a list of the notable films well into in production that haven't seen exposure in a long time, but it would take me half an hour to remember all of them. When everyone's working at roughly the same time, their energy feeds off each other. When directors sporadically feel a little bit inspired and come back to check on the community and everyone's half-dead, whatever spark they might've had dies -- quickly. It'd take at least 10-15 people being noticably interested and making progress to really get things moving again, and they'd have to maintain that inertia long enough for other directors sitting in limbo to take notice and add to the momentum. But as it stands, as it's stood for the past year and a half, only two or three at any given time are even vaguely inspired.

Example: Michael Sandford accounts for like 60% of the community's output for the past two months. But with no one feeding off that energy or giving him real feedback, he'll eventually lose motivation or desire and we'll return to the status quo, sinking even farther. Jon Barton's announced the release of his first movie since Liquid Sunshine, but he's one man and without the visibility of multiple people starting to pick back up, I don't know what kind of inertia it's going to achieve.

Those are the observations I've made (and this has been pretty stream-of-consciousness, admittedly). If this at all makes sense to you and you'd like to get interested again, DO IT. Go watch some recent releases and leave feedback. Reply to the animation thread. Get around to thinking about that unfinished movie you have sitting around. Not all at once, but make yourself more visible and do it somewhat consistently. It's a big fat catch-22; everyone's waiting for everyone else to do this and no one's going to unless they see something happen first.

[Raz]

I just really don't think the manifesto was a/the cause for death. I think the biggest factor is that most of the people have grown up since the release of the program. I mean fuck, I was like 12 when I first tried it. I'm suprised that a lot of people my age still find time for it in their lives. I don't think we should be pointing individual fingers. Like I said, the amount of petty arguing probably didn't help either.

[Anthropophagus]

Originally Posted by Jay Gilsenan

It's hilarious because your inventing facts about him! "Oh I bet you wouldn't say that in real life waffel;waf;fgk" HOW DO YOU KNOW? OH WAIT YOU DON'T? Inventing facts Sapone?


Hey, maybe the fact that you were constantly trying to argue with people was one of these factors. I mean you really did think you were hot shit didn't you? Desperate to Sapwn people Jon? Posting topics like "Post a topic where you are proud of your arguing"? Jesus fucking christ, get over yourself you goddamn fucking nobody.

At least the manifesto was meant to be something that was positive towards 3dmming. A guide or whatever. You were more interested in arguing to make YOURSELF look like you have some huge fucking hard e-image so don't give anyone that "pretencious" bullshit because you wrote the fucking book.

It's literally unbelievable that you're making an accusation like this. You are much more aggresive and threatening over the internet than ANYONE here. If you're accusing people's bad attitudes to be responsible, well I'd say you're just as to blame.

People can ignore a manifesto. It's hard to ignore when you're trying to post and some guy is trying to make himself look hard over the internet by being a bitch and picking stupid fights. I mean, I know stupid fights happen all the time here but god Sapone. Stop pointing the finger, you weren't exactly holding the door open for new directors.

You're talking about the goings-on of years ago. Congratulations? The desire to own people is far gone from my mind. I have an adult life now, and debating with fucking clowns like you, or Andres, is pretty moot at this point. I dropped in, like I do once in a while, and I caught this thread. I wasn't trying to start a fight. It just came off as silly that Andres was posing that question when it should be pretty fucking obvious why the community is dying. What do you expect when a community grows out of "Let's use the program for pointless fun!" into "Let's make a competent work of art!" 3dmm is not the medium to sustain that attitude. It's bloated and choking on its own fat. If anything, I'd hope people moved on to live-action or legitimate animation programs.

[Raz]

Exactly. Years ago. Like the manifesto Jon....

All I'm saying is that if you are willing to point the finger of blame, and on something that was actually some form of contribution to the community, then you must also take some of the blame. Like I said, you didn't exactly roll out the red carpet for anyone. I really believe that just as many people felt hesistant about being part of this community because there were some assholes desperate to pwn people as there were people who felt that they couldn't make a worthwhile contribution here because of the standards.

And on a side note, Jon Barton is apparently making a play of Liquid Sunshine.

[Dustin Guest]

The domination of Off-Topic is more to blame than Andres OR Sapone. The community stopped being focused on movies and more on stupid attempts at being funny in OT or "owning" people. It's not a community atmosphere. It's become more of a platform for debates. We've all contributed to it. And really, the problem with that is that, everyone here is ridiculously headstrong and unbending on their views. I don't like Andres, but I will admit that this can't all be laid at his feet. The community has sort of turned against eachother in these arguments and it's hard to work with those people at all, despite their talent. Speaking of which, that's another part of the problem. When you need a favor these days, like voices or something, you can't expect it within the week. Or month sometimes. It's why my projects are pretty much just stagnating. So much of the movies depend on the timing of the voice actor's delivery and you can't create without their help. People just got more interested in fighting and squabling or ass kissing those who are "better" at it. The aggression that we all created and grew into is what's destroying the community.

[HMC]

3DMM just doesn't really challenge me anymore. Well, it does, but not in the ways I'm interested in. I'm not really interested in storytelling or animation, so I don't care that my skills in those areas are lackluster. Rather, I spend all my time just making my scenes look pretty. I'm very obsessive about color and scene construction, but I seem to be about the only one. When I started 3DMMing, there were a lot of people whom I aspired to be as good as someday. Nowadays, in terms of scenery, I'm pretty much the top tier. There's very little that manages to inspire me anymore, so it's hard to feel motivated. Like Aaron said, this slows down the momentum of the entire community. It has nothing to do with Andres, and I think that the domination of Off-Topic Chat is more the result of 3DMM's deterioration than the cause of it.

[James McCloud]

Originally Posted by Dustin Guest

When you need a favor these days, like voices or something, you can't expect it within the week. Or month sometimes. It's why my projects are pretty much just stagnating. So much of the movies depend on the timing of the voice actor's delivery and you can't create without their help.

Don't try and play that hand. You don't NEED 3dmm.com for voices. If you really wanted to finish your projects, you'd find some people around you to help with voices.

Apathy is the only problem as far as movie making is concerned, end of.

[Bjorny]

I personally never gave a shit about standards. Nothing I've ever released has ever been up to the current standards. Not animation-wise, script-wise or anything else-wise. It's a twelve year old program, and it's not the fact that the possibilities are limited... I mean we've got the whole v3dmm-thing now... I ain't touchin' it. I just feel I had my fun with it back in the day... now... meh. Fuck it! It's old... even if I found out about it TODAY, it wouldn't be interesting anymore because there are other programs in which you can do much cooler thing, much simpler... Do you guys honestly expect a program this old to survive forever?

I appreciate this community, and it's menatity... I'm having a great time just sticking around here talking to people about random stuff. there is no forum like this one... when I was into 3dmming, this was a great place to stick around for that reason. Now, it still is but for other reasons... in my opinion at least.

Nobody can be personally blamed for this community not being as active as it used to... that's bullshit. I think it's just a natural development.

[Andres]

Originally Posted by Dustin Guest

The domination of Off-Topic is more to blame than Andres OR Sapone. The community stopped being focused on movies and more on stupid attempts at being funny in OT or "owning" people. It's not a community atmosphere. It's become more of a platform for debates. We've all contributed to it. And really, the problem with that is that, everyone here is ridiculously headstrong and unbending on their views. I don't like Andres, but I will admit that this can't all be laid at his feet. The community has sort of turned against eachother in these arguments and it's hard to work with those people at all, despite their talent. Speaking of which, that's another part of the problem. When you need a favor these days, like voices or something, you can't expect it within the week. Or month sometimes. It's why my projects are pretty much just stagnating. So much of the movies depend on the timing of the voice actor's delivery and you can't create without their help. People just got more interested in fighting and squabling or ass kissing those who are "better" at it. The aggression that we all created and grew into is what's destroying the community.

Off-Topic is dead too, Dustin. This community is not what it used to be. Not "the 3dmm aspect of it", the community itself. Most people are here out of habit. We're fucking old, dude.