Is 3DMM a dead end?

[Kayl]

Following the current tangent in the Community vs Lord Raidis thread in Off Topic, as well as the occasional subdiscussion every now and then, tell me: what is the point in 3DMMing? Is it just for fun or does it contribute to an artistic purpose? Is there a point in using an outdated children's programme supported by next to nobody? Is it, ultimately, a dead end?

[Getysburg]

Hey don't be like that Kayl, we're here for you.

[Darth Fyer]

Well i would consider it as artistic and challenging.

[Raz]

Maybe I'll have something more to say if this topic kicks off a bit. But I certainly do get enjoyment out of watching some of the new releases and shit, so it can't be totally worthless for the director.

[Scarecrow]

Professionaly, yeah, the program itself is a dead end. It's not going to get you any where in the world money wise. On a creative level, though, no, I don't believe it's a dead end. I'd be lying if I said 3dmm hasn't flourished my creativity at all. It is more polished and refined, which will be helpful when I apply it to my creative goals outside of 3dmm, which I am doing now.

[Slime]

yeah how is something creative a dead end. not everything creative has to end up being viewed by loads. thats like saying "is doodling in your notebook a dead end?" just cause loads of people don't see it doesn't have anything to do with the fun you have, the creativity you use.... there doesn't have to be some great POINT, the POINT is just to make something you like and can show to a few other people and have fun while creating it.

[Slime]

i mean i do loads of dumb creative things that are "point"less, they aren't all dead ends cause theyre fun to do for myself. like when i make a sculpture out of a paperclip that will be thrown away in a few minutes, whats the POINT? just to make a funny little thing then throw it out. whats the POINT of 3dmm? to make a cool thing that won't be seen by millions, but that is fun to make, fun to show to friends and watch afterward, and will be seen by a bunch of 3dmmers.

[Sinarach]

I wouldn't be where I am today without the creative base that 3dmm has taught me.

[Andres]

Originally Posted by Kayl

Following the current tangent in the Community vs Lord Raidis thread in Off Topic, as well as the occasional subdiscussion every now and then, tell me: what is the point in 3DMMing? Is it just for fun or does it contribute to an artistic purpose? Is there a point in using an outdated children's programme supported by next to nobody? Is it, ultimately, a dead end?

I really don't think you got my point in that thread. There's nothing inherently wrong with making 3dmm movies when you're of an age in which you have no real responsibilities and can therefore concern yourself with playing around with toys (which is what 3dmm is, really). 3dmm is good in that it gives people who are developing their creative interests an easy way of doing so.

BUT THAT'S IT. There comes a point in life when you're too fucking old to be playing around with toys, and at that point 3dmm IS a dead end. 3dmm when you're a grown man is about as much a dead end as being some 30 year old who likes playing World of Warcraft. It's stupid. It's ridiculous. It's a fucking joke.

The most simple analogy I can give you is with music, and bands. Lots of people play in bands, because they like music. They like playing music, they like composing music, and they think it's nice to play in front of a live audience and whatnot. But after a certain age, people actually do stop and think 'wait. i'm in some band, i'm spending time playing in this half-assed band with my friends. what am I doing?'. And at that point, people either say "well, my childhood rock star dreams were just that. I'm gonna get a real job", or they say "I'm going to make a run for this thing and support myself with my music, by doing such and such". But you don't see people keeping their old high school bands together for thirty fucking years while they go work at a law firm during the day.

THAT's what I meant in that thread. Of course things don't need to have some grand purpose WHEN YOU'RE A TEENAGER, but for fuck's sake, stop playing with your toys after you grow up. I don't care if they're digital toys.

Originally Posted by Chris Lohr

yeah how is something creative a dead end.

... By not being useful in any meaningful way, perhaps? What the fuck. See, that's why I knew that post was going to make a big fuss: because this community is full of a bunch of 'arty' types who spend half their days smoking up. Put that shit down, and stop defending people using a program when they have children that are actually the appropriate age to use that program.

Originally Posted by Chris Lohr

i mean i do loads of dumb creative things that are "point"less, they aren't all dead ends cause theyre fun to do for myself.

Yeah, that's great. That's adorable. It doesn't make it any good. It doesn't. Look, let's pretend for a moment that Bob Dylan never became a singer. He just worked at the post office and shit, made some money, got married, had a bunch of kids, etc. But every sunday he'd lock himself up all day in the basement and write a bunch of songs.

Are the songs bad? No, the songs are fucking awesome. But that doesn't change the fact that a grown man locking himself up in a basement to play music is weird. Do you get what I'm saying? I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it again: There's things that indicate to people that you are refusing to grow up, or made the wrong decision regarding what to do with your life, or just plain didn't make a decision.

Originally Posted by Chris Lohr

just cause loads of people don't see it doesn't have anything to do with the fun you have, the creativity you use.... there doesn't have to be some great POINT, the POINT is just to make something you like and can show to a few other people and have fun while creating it.

Sigh. What the fuck are you, 5 years old? The creativity you use? The fun you have? You're like 19 years old. You're not in kindergarden anymore, for fuck's sake. You already grew up, you already developed your creative instincts, you already had more than a decade of 'creativity' and 'fun' and some other bullshit like that. But at some point in life, you actually need to use your goddamn time to support yourself. If you are a driven man who has a plan and wants to support himself via art, go for it. Few can do it, but if you're one of those, go for it. But there's a big fucking difference between doing that, and using a child's program to play around. Because that's what it is. Using a child's program to play around. It's barely two steps above playing around with Lego.

Originally Posted by Chris Lohr

thats like saying "is doodling in your notebook a dead end?"

Again, the great disconnect. The community consists of a pack of idiots. Is doodling in your notebook a dead end, you ask? Is doodling in your fucking notebook a dead end? *sigh*

Let's pretend I'm 26 years old and working at a law firm. I have to write something up, or I have some papers, or something, and I keep making doodles in these papers. One day my briefcase falls down and all my papers are thrown on the floor. One of the senior partners is walking and sees that I've been doodling all over my work.

What do you think his reaction's going to be? What do you think MY reaction's going to be? What do you think anyone at the office's reaction is going to be?



You know what? You're full of shit, all of you. Everyone talking about creativity and about the goals of 3dmm is completely full of shit. You know why you're full of shit? Because if your father told you that he's making a 3dmm movie, you'd be fucking horrified. And if you aren't horrified, you're a stupid piece of shit.

There. That's the litmus test. Say everyone you want about creativity, say everyone you want about how fun it is to pursue artistic interests, say all of that shit. But if your father told you he sits down every couple of days to animate some cartoon joke about 911, your reaction SHOULD be "what the fuck is the matter with you?".

Goddammit, fuck all of you.

[Ned]

...which is pretty much my reasoning for being doubtful of any new releases on my part. JSD may have been my last night in the nursery.

But I dunno.

[Andres]

There was as econd part to my post, here it is:


What's a normal job? 9 to 5. 5, maybe 6 times a week. That's a job you have to support yourself. It needs to be a damn good job to support yourself + a child, even if you've got a spouse contributing to it. So your day is taken at least until 5. You've gotta get back home, change, eat some dinner (and cook the damn thing), so that's at least another hour. You're not going to go to bed terribly late since you're a grown man with a job, so let's say 11-12. You have a spouse, which presumably appreciates your company, and you have kids, which presumably appreciate your company too. Not to mention there's also about one million errands that you need to take care of. It's fucking hard. It's hard and you don't have a lot of time left for yourself. There is simply no way you can advocate that a father and husband should spend some of that time sitting in front of a computer, doodling around with 3dmm (as opposed to pen and paper). None. There simply is none. Especially 3dmm. 3dmm is only interesting to the person making the movie. It is not interesting to anyone watching the making of the movie. You can't hang your 3dmm movie somewhere around your house. It exists only on the internet, its influence or reception being totally irrelevant to your real life. It's like throwing a fucking pebble at a pond. It's completely useless as a social tool, too, when you're OLD. We get along and like each other and we're young, but what the fuck are you going to do as some 30 year old here? Befriend some kids?!? I can understand people taking art classes or ceramics or whatnot because at least there's a social aspect to it, and at least they can hang their shit around the house and their visitors/friends/etc will see the fruits of their art. But a bunch of 12 year olds on the internet?

I'm not going to say I know a whole lot about this Lord Raidis guy. So I'm just basing my assessment on really sketchy ideas, but the guy seems like an idiot. He's what, an illustrator/graphics designer? If he were a serious man, seriously trying to make a living off that kind of thing, he'd be doing something he can actually show to people, not a 3dmm movie. Especially not one about 911. What, you think that shit's gonna look good on anyone's portfolio? Apparently he did some illustrations for Maddox. I'd be nice to believe that the man is a ruthless businessman who's thinking in terms of 'getting my picture on Maddox's book would give me massive exposure and hopefully many new jobs', but from the looks of his site, he's just a Maddox fanboy willing to please his idol.

It reminds me a lot of Ramza. Not just because of the kid thing. Ramza was presumably a music composer, and he was looking for some career involving music. But is Ramza a serious man? Is Ramza the type of person who you can really say "here's someone who's got his shit together"? No. And the most powerful indication of that is his involvement in 3d movie maker. Do you think someone who's serious about his career (or someone who's intelligent) is really going to score a 3dmm movie? a 3dmm movie, which has a very very limited audience, absolutely none of whom are in the position of giving him a real job or granting him some exposure? Yes, 3dmm is a dead end. And that's a classic example of how much of a dead end it is. Ramza would be a whole lot better writing the score for some absolutely abysmal, Z-grade horror film for free, because at least there's a market for such films, and the people that produce this kind of crap could give him an actual paying job.

Did Ramza get his desire to be involved in filmmaking/music from 3dmm movies? Maybe. But if Ramza were a serious person, he would have stopped that fucking Gnomes bullshit and actually gone out and scored something that would have made him some money.

3dmm is a dead end, and it's immature, and it's ridiculous. Those things are all perfectly fine when you ARE immature and ridiculous, like all of us. But come on. You've gotta grow out of it. Look at Jason. Jason grew up using 3dmm, and what does he do now? Flash cartoons. Is it a massive improvement? I don't know, since nothing has materialized, but they have a wider audience and he can at least use that shit as a calling card. It would be ridiculous for Jason to be like "Oh man, I'm gonna start making another 3dmm movie right now", just as it would be ridiculous for Peter to start making a 3dmm movie right now, just as it would be ridiculous for Adrian to start making a 3dmm movie right now, just as it would be ridiculous for Space Goat to start making a 3dmm movie right now. I don't care how good the movies are, it's ridiculous. I don't care if it satisfies the creative child within you, it's ridiculous. And also, making a 3dmm movie isn't a piece of cake. You can't just whip up a 3dmm movie in 10 minutes.

If you want to use 3dmm as a launching pad to other, better things, do it. Use 3dmm while youre in high school and, if you feel a career in filmmaking or music composing or cinematography or writing or game design or whatever the hell you want is viable, then go for it. But if you're out there, shooting a short film with real cameras, yet you still waste your time animating 3dmm movies, I hate the shit out of you.

[Ned]

Thank you, Andres, seriously. You've given me the morale boost to officially retire.

Still, it's still nice to see teenagers popping up now and then, all excited to study old movies and make their own stuff. Like you said, they've got the time and the life that allows them to do it. I like being able to voice act for 'em, too.

[Demented Ferret]

You know what? You're full of shit, all of you. Everyone talking about creativity and about the goals of 3dmm is completely full of shit. You know why you're full of shit? Because if your father told you that he's making a 3dmm movie, you'd be fucking horrified. And if you aren't horrified, you're a stupid piece of shit.

My Dad made a movie with a skeleton engaging in sexual intercourse with Bongo in the police uniform the other week. Best movie ever, I'll try to find it.

[Demented Ferret]

And by the way, although I can see where your ideas are coming from, I disagree with most of the things you've said Andres - but I don't mean that in a harsh way, I don't mean to aggravate you or anything. I'll elaborate another time, because it's just too damn late for me to think about typing anything of sense right now.

[Raz]

Yeah I think Andres has hit the nail on the head. 3dmm is fun and all but in the long run, it amounts to nothing. I mean, that's not to say don't do it, because I certainly enjoy seeing what people have created. But I can't say that whenever I try and start a 3dmm project that I question whether or not it's really worth it.

[Demented Ferret]

This probably doesn't make too much sense, I'm fucking shattered,I know - but bare with me here.

It amounts towards progression at something which can at least be applied in a variety of fields. Play WoW? That's next to fucking useless. 3DMM however, skills can be applied to:

1. Live Action Movie Directing
2. Theatre Work
3. Photoshopping
4. Artistic Theory
5. 3D Modelling
6. 3D Animation
7. Etc...

Now I'm not saying that 3dmm is the MOST useful thing to invest time into, because I'm sure it isn't - but it certainly isn't COMPLETELY useless.

I'll be honest here, I'm very bad at art, I can't even handwrite for fuck sake, so I've never had the opportunity to be praised for anything on a creative/artistic level. So 3dmm, being a medium I can vent some creativity into, is beneficial to me, personally, because I enjoy it - and to others because they can learn skills and techniques that may end up being applied to subjects in the list above. (Not to mention they may enjoy watching something I make ).

Think of the musical composers who created atonal and very experimental pieces back in the 50s/60s. They were creating pieces specifically to a very small audience, mostly of people who composed in the field themselves. This is kinda similar except maybe not.

[Andres]

I actually addressed that but seemed to have not copy-pasted it.

It's kinda like this:

3dmm is a fine tool to use as a springboard (or as a way to develop interest in) creative pursuits. But this is only when you are circumstantially unable to do it in a more practical way. If you don't have the money, or the people, or the clout to be pursuing something else, then yes, use 3dmm. No harm in Jimmy the 14 year old making 3dmm movies. But do you think Jeff Ching, a man who is in school, making short films, with real people and real cameras, needs to be making 3dmm movies? No.

There. That's a great example. Jeff used 3dmm to write a bunch of crappy movies. Then he decided to write crappy REAL movies. 3dmm was useful for him. But Jeff should never use 3dmm again. It would be inexcusable for him to do so. He needs to be out there, getting a career.

Qaz is a similar example. Ben Williams too. They made 3dmm movies, then they remade these 3dmm movies in the real world, and use those as calling cards. They don't sit around making 3dmm movies anymore, they moved on to greater things.

Similarly, other people (for instance, Aaron Haynes) are moving on to NOT making movies. Instead, he's making video games or something. If he wants to make a Vlarion videogame, KEWL. But Aaron Haynes can't be making VLARION 84 when his youngest son is 14.

[Raz]

Hahah I love the way you justified Jeff without giving him ANY credit whatsoever.

[Aaron Haynes]

As you're apparently speaking long-term, I will withhold the response I prepared after reading why it isn't okay for an adult to have a few self-indulgent hobbies. There's a difference between Brad Ross enjoying playing around on an animation program he's familiar with and Ramza Brave trying to impress people with his production companies and hired voice actors. Suffice it to say that if I have a 14-year old son, I would hope I'd left 3DMM behind me many years ago.

Other than that, I doubt I have to explain why I'm reluctant to take advice on social responsibilities and creative maturity from someone with a zooming avatar of Ramza Brave's kid.

[Andres]

What does that have to do with anything? Everyone's avatar at 3dmm.com is something silly. Your avatar is some sort of Down Syndrome Lego. What, does that make your opinion about using 3dmm irrelevant?

I used 3dmm through high school. Then I weighted the pros and cons of a career in something 'creative' as opposed to something more conventional. I went for a more conventional career, and prompty quit 3dmm and stopped wasting my time. BUT I GUESS I'M SOME SORT OF GIANT MANCHILD BECAUSE I HAVE A FUNNY AVATAR.

[Shawn McGravy]

Stop being a sourpuss and make another movie Andres.

[Andres]

a v3dmm porno. MAYBE.

[Dustin Guest]

I look at 3dmm as something fun to pass time, and something to express my creativity. I have these big ideas for things that I can't necessarily do live action. And sometimes I want to get those ideas out and show them to people in a form that isn't writing, because, frankly I suck at that. If you take 3dmm too seriously, then, yeah it becomes a problem. But I don't think it's a springboard into a career, because let's face it. No matter how we dress it up, it's still a childrens program. No actual movie studio is going to look at these movies and think "HOLY SHIT! LET'S GET THIS IN THEATERS!" And Andres, you just like bagging on things because...well...you're kind of an asshole and that gets you off. I'm sure you'll come back at me with some "devastating" remark like "fuck you" or "shut up" or some 3 chapter booklet that basically only says those things, but I don't really care what you think. To everyone else, I'd say don't give up 3dmm just because it's not going to lead you somewhere. I make movies, and there's a group of people who see them and are possibly entertained by them. That's enough for me.

[Aaron Haynes]

Originally Posted by Andres De La Hoz

What does that have to do with anything? Everyone's avatar at 3dmm.com is something silly. Your avatar is some sort of Down Syndrome Lego. What, does that make your opinion about using 3dmm irrelevant?

I used 3dmm through high school. Then I weighted the pros and cons of a career in something 'creative' as opposed to something more conventional. I went for a more conventional career, and prompty quit 3dmm and stopped wasting my time. BUT I GUESS I'M SOME SORT OF GIANT MANCHILD BECAUSE I HAVE A FUNNY AVATAR.

It's one small part of why I don't spend too long mulling over your pages and pages of pontificating about maturity and social responsibilities, yes. Mr. Paragon of Maturity who spends his idle hours badgering and mocking people on the internet, and then acts genuinely creeped out at the idea of some guy writing songs in his basement on weekends. Andres De La Hoz, supreme arbiter of right and wrong, setting the record straight on what's too nerdy and weird to exist without being personally challenged in four-page edicts on social behavior. The same guy who whines about how I blocked him from AIM because I got sick of listening to him talk about how he has no white friends and how he's going to turn his life around and how this is going to be his social semester. The same guy who'll spend hours arguing over insignificant bullshit, thundering and shouting, and come back two days later with a sheepish "lol this thread was funny". This is a fine self-indulgence, but a little nerdy creative animating clearly points to a troubled childhood.

I guess the difference is that you're still an immature teenager or early 20-something college student, so you can use the excuse that you don't have those responsibilities yet. I guess this also puts you in the perfect position to judge adults that you don't know and surmise that there's something deeply socially wrong with them because they have self-indulgent hobbies like 3dmming.

[Aaron Haynes]

Oh, and just before my post gets misrepresented.

3DMM is probably a professional dead-end, insofar as using it in hopes of advancing a multimedia career beyond portfolio examples of basic animation and directing isn't likely to help much. It's a great little tool for learning the basics of directing and animation and world design. The experience by itself is more than worth it. But there comes a point where it needs to be left behind if one wants to move on and do art, animation, or cinema professionally.

As far as remaining a worthwhile creative tool, with the advent of youtube, googlevideo, and the streaming hub project Ferret's been working on, it may still be able to draw a sizeable audience and allow younger people to try their hand at basic directing and animating.

As for continuing to use it as you get older, there will probably reach a point when your audience shrinks to not make it worthwhile. It's a niche program, especially as it gets older, and a lot of people probably just wouldn't understand it. As I've still got an audience, both online and in real life, and it remains an enjoyable activity (and I still have a story I want to tell) I'll probably keep at it for some time.